RB:  Hi, this is Roz Bornstein, and I am here with Ann Nieder at Ann's home in Seattle, Washington, at 5365 S. Kenyon.   And, the date today is July 11th, 2001.   And, Ann and I are meeting today to gather her oral history for the "Weaving Women's Words" project of the Jewish Women's Archive.  Ann, do I have your permission to interview and tape you?

AN:  Yes, you do.

RB:  Thank you very much.   Why don't we start with where and when you were born?

AN:  I was born in Seattle, Washington, September 17th, 1922.

RB:  And who were you named after?

AN:  I was named after my mother's sister who died a year after childbirth.

RB:  And where did you grow up?

AN:  I grew up in the Capitol Hill area, and we really lived in several houses there.   But, we were always in that area, until I got married, I believe.

RB:  Is that right?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  Could you, for those people outside of Seattle -- could you describe the boundaries of that geographical area - -just for some markers?

AN:  The Capitol Hill area extended from Galer up to -- well, really 15th Avenue, N.E. and down to about 23rd Avenue.   And, it was not very much a Jewish area.   It was more or less a Catholic area.   And there was a Catholic Church, and a Catholic girls' school.   A Catholic Boy’s School.   So, I grew up, knowing as many Catholic children as I did Jewish children.

RB:  Do you remember the names of some of the schools?   And the churches that you mentioned - in that area?   As landmarks?

AN:  I went to Stevens School, which was the elementary school -- from first grade through the 8th, in those days.   And the church was St. Joseph's Church.   And, the School was Holy Names Academy for girls.

RB:  All right.   You were also very close to Volunteer Park -- is that right?

AN:  Not that close.  No.

RB:  OK.

AN:  That was sort of on the fringes of Capitol Hill.

RB:  I see.  OK.   So, your family pretty much stayed in that area while you were growing up?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  OK.

AN:  Yes.

RB:  OK.   All right.   And, who lived in your household?

AN:  It was -- until I was about 7 years old, it was my mother and father -- and, I had an older sister, and then a younger sister, and a younger brother.   And, that comprised the household.   And then, at that time, we happened to be very, very wealthy.   And then, there was the Depression.   And, we did lose everything.   And, we moved about three blocks away to a different house.  And, when I was about 10, I believe, my mother and father divorced.

RB:  Oh.

AN:  And, it was quite unusual in those days for a Jewish - -but, as I said, I was named after my mother's sister.   And as was the custom in those days -- the husband was really forced to marry the next -- marry one of the sisters that were remaining in my mother's family, because there was a one-year-old child.  So, it was not necessarily a marriage of love, I don't think.  But that is what happened.

RB:  I see.   What were your parents' names, and your siblings' names?

AN:  My mother's name was Esther.   And, her maiden name was Borish.   And, my father's name was Barney Lustig.   And, my older sister was Grace.   And then, there was myself, and then I have a sister, Marilyn, and a brother, Arthur.

RB:  And, you mentioned the custom of men marrying the sister --

AN:  Yes.

RB:  Upon their spouse's death.   And, did you hear much about that growing up about that custom?   Or, the impact of it?

AN:  No.   Actually, I was never even told that my older sister was my half-sister, until I must have been at least 12, or 13 years old before I ever even knew that.

RB:  Is that right?

AN:  So, it was never mentioned, no.

RB:  And, did that custom continue?  Do you know?

AN:  Oh, I think eventually, no.   In fact, I was rather surprised that it was even brought over to this country, but I guess it was.   And, my mother was born in Odessa, Russia.   And my father was born in New York City.

RB:  Ah.   And, how did they meet?

AN:  I don't know how my father, and my mother's sister met.   I really don't know.   And, of course, as I said, my mother was the next sister -- so, it was automatic that she had -- that she and my father had to get married.

RB:  And were their backgrounds the same?   Even though they were born in different places?

AN:  No.   My father was - my mother -- growing up, my mother lived in an Orthodox family.   And, I know my grandmother was very active in that community here in Seattle.   And, I know she would cook for  -- -during the War, she cooked for the soldiers that came and everything.   And, she was quite well known then.   So, my mother's background was really Orthodox.  My father's -- I don't think my father was religious at all.  And, I don't even know how old he was when he came to Seattle.  I suspect he was quite young.   He did become involved in the  Jewish community, and it was the Young Men's Hebrew Association at that time -- which is no longer.   And, he also won -- I think it was in Seattle -- won the title for the lightweight fighting championship -- which was also most unusual.   So, no -- they did not come from the same kind of a background. (laughter)

RB:  (laughter)   Isn't that something?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  How did they -- so do you know anything about how they both came to Seattle?   Or the circumstances?

AN:  My mother's family -- and -- no, I don't know anything about my father's background.   I really don't.   There was -- he had one sister living here.   And then, she had two children..  But that's all I ever had met of his family.   My mother's family -- my mother was about 7 years old when her family came from Russia.  And, of course, it was to escape -- her father was dead, I believe.   But, her uncle was supposed to serve in the Russian Army.   And, of course, everybody got out if they could.   And there was one sister who was not admitted at the time.   I believe she was ill.   She had to go to Brazil.   She lived there for about 10 years, before she was admitted.  But they came to escape the Army at that time.   And, I think they came from a very poor family.   But that's -- that's really all I know about them.

RB:  Oh.   And so, your mother came over with her siblings, and her uncle?   Is that right?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  OK.

AN:  Yes, yes.

RB:  Do you know approximately what year that she --

AN:  I know she came here in 19__ -- let's see -- she was born in 1901.   I think it was 7 years after that that she came.   About 1908.

RB:  OK.  So -- and your father was here?

AN:  As far as I know -- his family had been in New York for quite a long time.   They were really Ashkanazi Jews.   And my mother was -- it's just that - and his background, certainly, was not a religious one.

RB:  And, so you are not exactly sure of how your father and aunt met…

AN:  No.

RB:  But somehow, even though their backgrounds were very different -- they retained the custom of marrying the sister?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  And they settled -- your mother and father settled in Seattle?

AN:  That's correct.   Yes.

RB:  I see.   And so, can you tell us a little bit about your early childhood?   You know, what you remember from -- you know, birth to -- the early years?

AN:  The early years?

RB:  Early years.

AN:  I remember when I was growing up -- I do remember we had servants, and we had a car, which was not very common at that time.   And, we lived across the street from the man who was the Mayor.   And, he and my father were very, very good friends.   And they were in a lot of business deals together.  And, my father was appointed Chairman of the Park Board which was quite an honor at that time.   As far as growing up Jewish - I remember, after -- we always went to Temple.   My mother would still go to Herzl, and my grandmother would go to Bikur Cholim.   And, of course, during the Holidays, actually, you've heard we would make the rounds from -- we'd always walked.   We never rode. But, we would go from Temple to Herzl to Bikur Cholim to see all the relatives.   And, of course, everybody had to have a new outfit, and hats, and the whole thing.   That was - it was a very close, Jewish community at that time.

RB:  And, it sounds like there was a lot of mixing between the congregations, or not?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  How would you describe that?

AN:  There was quite - -yes, every - because most people's background was quite similar to my own.   We had -- our grandparents are quite religious.   And the children, at that time, those that belong to temple.  And of course, those are the ones I knew -- were not quite as religious.   And, I know we would get -- families would get together, and we would go to -- it was called Lake Geneva -- which is probably only about 20 minutes from Seattle now.  But, at that time, it seemed like an all-day's trip.   And we would go for Sunday picnics there.   And then, when I was a little bit older, a bunch of us would go to -- it was Vassar Park, and we would have to take a ferry at Madison to get over there.

RB:  And do you know where that is?

AN:  It's over by Lake Sammamish now.

RB:  I see.

AN:  But it was -- we -- there was no way of getting there, except by ferry.

RB:  No floating bridges?

AN:  No floating bridges. (laughter)

RB:  And, you mentioned -- the first park you mentioned -- or the Lake -- Lake Geneva --

AN:  Yes.

RB:  Do you know where it is now?

AN:  It's by Tacoma - it is South of Seattle.

RB:  OK.

AN:  Yes, the families would all go there.   And I -- in fact, that's where I think my mother's family, and my husband's family would all be there.   And that's really where we first met. (laughter)   And, of course we had been in Temple, and high school, and everything together.   So we had always known each other.

RB:  I see.   Isn't that something?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  Let's see -- as a child -- so you remember spending time with family, and with your grandmother?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  Is that your mother's mother?

AN:  Yes, that's my mother's mother.

RB:  OK.   And how close were you to these family members?

AN:  Oh, we were very close.  We would usually have Friday night dinner at my grandmother's house - -which I detested. (laughter)

RB:  Do you remember why?   What --

AN:  It really was -- it was so very old country, and the customs were still observed and she lived with my two -- with her two sisters -- my great aunts.   And, they were lovely.   And they were always so nice to me.   But, I never liked going there. (laughter)  But, and then, eventually we sort of won my mother away from Orthodoxy and Conservatism, and we went to temple -- although we also went to religion school at Herzl growing up.   We went to both.

RB:  I see.

AN:  So --

RB:  Do you remember any specific customs on Friday night?   Or foods that you would --

AN:  Well, my mother and my grandmother both cooked in a very old fashioned way.   You know, it was very heavy Jewish food, which was typical.

RB:  Any special family recipes that --

AN:  If there were it never wore off on me, (laughter) I'm not a very good cook.   No.  But I know my grandmother was considered an excellent cook -- and, my mother also.

RB:  And, you had mentioned -- just going back a step -- that approximately at aged 10, your parents divorced.  What do you remember about that time and its impact on you?

AN:  It was -- as I said, it was most unusual for a woman to get divorced at that time, and particularly, a Jewish woman.   And, financial conditions were very bad for us.   And, I know that she had to go to work.  And, she had not worked since she was about 18 years old.   And, I believe my grandfather, or uncle had a dry goods store, and she would help in that.   But, I don't remember anything about it.   And, then she had to go to work, after the divorce.   And we would see my father, occasionally.   But, the circumstances were quite difficult at that time.   And, financially, it was a very difficult period for many, many years.

RB:  Did your mother talk much about her decision to divorce at that time?

AN:  No.   My mother never, ever -- unfortunately -- discussed anything personal.   She never -- I think, she felt if she didn't talk about it, it would go away.   And, she really didn't.   But, my father then -- I think, after I graduated high school -- he left and went to California.   So we would correspond a little bit, but not very much.   He did not keep in close contact with us.   So, and I know that my mother would take us during the day, on the bus (laughter) and it was a trolley car, probably.  (laughter)  But we would take two buses to go to Madison Park to go swimming.    And, then when we went to religion -- to Temple or Herzl, we would take the bus and -- sometimes, somebody would come by and pick us up and take us. (laughter)  But, our second house was on 20th and Aloha-- that's really where I grew up and spent most of my childhood.   And I know that we lived right across the alley -- there was a Japanese dry cleaners.   And, on Fort Nicholas they were interned during the War.   And that was quite traumatic.

RB:  Oh sure.   That must have been.   Let's see --

AN:  Oh, I had -- and, as I said, I had both Jewish friends, and Gentile friends -- at that time.   And, I would always give up something for Lent. (laughter)  And we would spend Passovers at a friend of ours.   They always invited us every year for Passover.   And there used to be about 25 people.   You know, one of these huge extended long tables that went from the dining room into the living room.  But, we did that for many, many years.   And, on Saturday afternoons, there were four of us that would go down to Frederick and Nelson's and have lunch and go to a movie.  And this was a big outing.   And these were Jewish women that I still see today.

RB:  Is that right?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  And do you remember -- just for fun -- do you remember which restaurant at Frederick and Nelson's if you could?

AN:  Oh it was -- if we could -- if we managed to get enough money together. (laughter) we'd go upstairs to the Tea Room  but that had to be somebody's birthday.   Otherwise, we'd eat downstairs in the cafeteria -- which was really quite nice then.

RB:  The Paul Bunyon Room?

AN:  No.

RB:  No?

AN:  This was long before it was The Paul Bunyon Room. (laughter)

RB:  Is that right?

AN:  Yes. (laughter)

RB:  Oh, I thought I was doing well here. (laughter)

AN:  No, but I do remember -- bar mitzvah's were generally held at the Dolly Madison Tea Room.   That's where the luncheons would always be.   And it -- oh dear -- was it the -- there was a Bartell's -- it was like 6th and Pike.   And, I don't -- something like that.

RB:  So, where -- let's see -- so bar and bat mitzvah parties?

AN:  There were no bat mitzvahs then.

RB:  Yes.

AN:  No, just bar mitzvahs yes.

RB:  And, the parties were often held -- and can you describe the place?   Dolly Madison's?

AN:  It was a typical Tea Room, with lace (laughter) tablecloths.  And one little flower in a vase. (laughter)  But --

RB:   Who was invited to these?

AN:  Friends of whomever was bar mitzvahed -- and the parents, you know?

RB:  And that was the place to be?

AN:  Yes, it used to be the place to go, yes.

RB:  Do you remember, approximately what years this would be?

AN:  No, I don't.   Uh-uh -- I must have -- well, they had to be 13.

RB:  Yes.

AN:  You know?

RB:  Right.

AN:  You know.

RB:  That's so funny.   How long did that continue for?

AN:  Well, it was about five years anyway, and then, it stopped.   And then, people -- at that time, this was just very common.  And then, of course, people began to be -- take -- make a little bit more money, and so they went other places.   And, I know in the early days, bar mitzvah parties would be held at Glendale Country Club.   In fact, for our son's bar mitzvah, we had a big dinner dance at the Glendale Country Club -- the present one.    It used to be way out in the South End, and I don't remember the address.

RB:  OK.  So, growing up you were primarily members of Temple --

AN:  Temple De Hirsch.   Yes.

RB:  OK.

AN:  And there would be -- every year they would celebrate Hanukkah, and they used to -- and all the kids would go up on the stage, and they'd get a little bag of sugar candy in the shapes of dreidels or stars, and a gift.   But always -- on the corner of the stage would be this HUGE menorah which was sort of the shape of a tree.   (laughter)   And there were mixers at Temple when I was about 16 that we could go to.   And, I was confirmed at Temple.   And, graduated from Temple.

RB:  Isn't that something?

AN:  Mmm.

RB:  So, it sounds like you had a pretty involved and rich Jewish life, or social life?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  ... when you were growing up?

AN:  Yes, yes.

RB:  You also mentioned that you were friends with non-Jews.   And there were many Catholics in the area?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  And so, you mentioned something about giving up for Lent…

AN:  Well two of my really close non-Jewish friends -- and there were not that many Jewish children that went to Stevens at that time.   So, two of my very close friends were Catholic.  And, I went to services a couple of time at St. Joseph's -- and, I always gave up something for Lent, when they did. (laughter)   And, we remained friends all through high school.  And, then, my life changed, and theirs changed -- so we really didn't -- occasionally -- but not very often.

RB:  What was your sense of your Jewish identity at this time?    Growing up at Temple and -

AN:  At that time -- and, it was so different than children growing up today - we, of course, were very aware.   We were Jewish.  We practiced Judaism.    But, we never, ever volunteered the fact that we were Jewish.   And, of course, there were the traditional Christmas songs -- sung in the schools and everything.   And, all you did was just not say the word "Christ" while you were singing. (laughter)  But, it was a very, very different atmosphere.   And, I know when I was -- oh, I must have been about 17 or 18 -- I was working --  I was making money to go to college.   And, I was working at the Sears Catalogue Office.  And, several of the people that worked there lived within driving distance.   And, they would pick me up and take me -- and I didn't look Jewish.   I was very blond. And they didn't know I was Jewish -- and, when I quit to go to school, they gave me this beautiful gold cross. (laughter)  And, so it was just a very different atmosphere. You didn't deny it -- but, you didn't offer that -- ever.  And, I don't really think I ever, ever experienced overt antisemitism directed towards me.

RB:  Either in school or in your workplaces?

AN:  No.

RB:  And what about in terms of gender?   Did you feel that girls were tracked any differently than boys, in school -- as a young child?

AN:  I was never aware of it.   And, perhaps, I'm sure it was true, but I was never, ever aware of it.

RB:  In your family, did you notice any differences?

AN:  No.   Because my brother was the youngest.   Perhaps if he had been the older one -- and, actually, he really grew up without a father.   So, there was never that pressure being the oldest, Jewish child and being a son.

RB:  In terms of your family and role models -- were your parents, or your grandmother, role models to you?

AN:  No, they really weren't -- I sort of just grew up myself.

RB:  Ah-ha.  What did --

AN:  My mother was very, very busy when I was growing up.   And, she was working.   And she was a very -- she was a very beautiful, attractive woman.  And, she sort of had her own life -- that she hoped to live.   And, she was an excellent mother, but it was not common then either for parents to be friends with their children, as it is today.

RB:  Yes.

AN:  So, no, I did not have that much -- but, all I knew -- my relatives were lovely to me.   They all were.

RB:  Your extended family?

AN:  Yes, yes.

RB:  Is that right?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  Before the divorce?   As well as after?

AN:  Oh yes, oh yes.   Yes.

RB:  How did that impact you when your parents separated and divorced?   What was that like? 

AN:  Um, it was -- Well, I guess I really didn't really talk about it.   And, as I said, all of my mother's friends, and all the relatives, really were nice.   And, I think, perhaps they compensated for it in a way.  But, I didn't -- I never felt the great loss of not having a father.   I wish it had been different.   But, it was not a huge impact on my life at that time.

RB:  So, it sounds like the extended family provided a ton of support?

AN:  Yes, they did.   Yes, and it was still a fairly close Jewish community.   And there was always - -people just did things together.   And, everybody knew everybody at that time.   And what they were doing.  (laughter)

RB:  Now, you had mentioned that you spent most of your youth in the Capitol Hill neighborhood?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  And, we're curious to know how Seattle has changed, over time, as a place where Jews live?   And, how the Jewish community has evolved here in Seattle?

AN:  Well, I know when I was really growing up -- as I said my parents -- my grandparents lived by Cherry Street which, at that time, was sort of the hub of the Jewish community.   Capitol Hill had the more affluent Jews who were Temple people.   And, there was quite a distinguishing mark between the two.   And then, after the Depression, things were rough -- but then, people began making money again.   And the community did disperse all over.   But, we still knew each other.   It's not like today.   Although, as I said, I'm still -- my closest friends are still those -- my closest Jewish friends are those I grew up with -- and some families that still is also that way.   The children who have remained in Seattle are still friends.   In fact, one my closest friends -- her grandmother, and my grandmother were close friends.   Her mother and my mother were close friends.   She and I have been the closest of friends -- and our two sons are the closest of friends.

RB:  No kidding?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  And --

AN:  And that doesn't happen today (laughter) very much any more.

RB:  That's wonderful.   And, who is this friend?  What is her name?

AN:  Marian Block.  She's now married to Robert Block.   But she was Marian Friedman when she lived in Bremerton, and then, she would come over and stay on the weekends with me.   And, when we were going to college, I was a year older.  And, when she was going through Rushing at the University, she would stay with me, all the time until -- she lived in the sorority house.

RB:  That's amazing.

AN:  And so, and then our two sons were born three weeks apart.   And so, they're just -- he's a Rabbi.   And he's -- in fact, he was in Israel for -- in Jerusalem for several years, and now he's back.   But, he and my son just had a conversation the other day. (laughter)

RB:  Isn't that something?   Let's see -- So, you attended Stevens Elementary School.

AN:  Yes.

RB:  And what classes, or teachers, or activities stand out in your mind about your grade school education?

AN:  There wasn't anything that was terribly important.  We just -- well the whole attitude of students, and teachers, of course, in those days was completely different -- whatever a teacher said was gospel.   And nothing was ever questioned.   I certainly never, ever questioned anything.   I mean, you know, whatever they told me was true.   But, I know -- well, actually, that's when I first started becoming active -- and I ran for Secretary (laughter) of the Student Council, and was elected.   And that was the very beginning (laughter) of my activities.  (laughter)

RB:  And how old were you?

AN:  Oh, I think I was in the 8th grade.   And, then, I went to Broadway High School.  But, I was supposed to have gone to Garfield, because our alley line was the dividing line.   But, I didn't want to go to Garfield.   Don't ask me why.   But I went to Broadway.

RB:  Did you have more friends going to Broadway?

AN:  Yes.   There were more people that I knew that were going to Broadway.   Yes.

RB:  What was your experience like at Broadway?   What do you remember about it?

AN:  There were quite a few Asian people at that time -- quite a -- there were quite a few Jewish people, but not predominantly.  I think we may have had one Black person that went.   It was completely different.   I know I became active at Broadway, also.   And, it was said by everybody that our Girls' Club advisor was antisemitic.   And, she may have been.   I don't know.   But, it was certainly under cover at that time.   I did have both Gentile and Jewish friends there, also, as well as many Asian friends.   And, as I said, I was active, and I was Secretary of the Girls' Club there.   And, I was on several committees.   And, I was in an Honorary Group at that time, which was quite nice. (laughter)  And we had this big white sweater with an orange B (laughter) on it.  Which only volenties  could wear. (laughter)  But, my own personal background, it was, again -- we would -- according -- at the Girls' Club, those that were active would wear midi's and skirts every day, except Friday, which was a free day.   And, I do remember, I had very few clothes that I could wear.   So it was just a God-send for me. (laughter)   But financially things were still very, very difficult for our family at that time.    I did mix with both Jews and Gentiles.  A lot of the Jewish kids did not.   And, I think, I know my husband said the kids used to beat up on him all the time. (laughter)  But, usually, probably because he always carried a violin. (laughter)   And so, I don't know -- I think there was a lot of antisemitic feeling.   I probably was oblivious of a lot of it.   It didn't interfere with me, personally, ever.

RB:  And, it sounds like you weren't excluded, or made to feel like you couldn't belong?

AN:  No.  No.

RB:  You were involved in many activities?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  And, did you have any role models in high school?   Any teachers?   Or --

AN:  There was one -- not really -- As I said, well, I wasn't a questioning child growing up -- and, I just did accept things the way they were.   And, I thoroughly enjoyed going, and it was fun, but I was not what you would call a "ring-leader" at all.   So, no, I truly didn't have a role model.   I guess I really haven't had a particular role model. (laughter)

RB:  Well -- but, you've done so much and had a very full life.

AN:  It just evolved.

RB:  Yes.

AN:  Yes.

RB:  Let's see --  You also went to summer camps growing up.  Can you describe your experiences at the summer camps?

AN:  Yes, I went -- when I was -- I guess I must have been about 10, and my sister and myself went to a Catholic camp -- because it was quite inexpensive.   And we could go.   We could afford to go there.   So, we went.   And then, when I was 12-years-old, I went to B'nai B'rith Camp which was in Oregon.   And, that's also -- two of my friends from here -- two of my Saturday lunch friends went.   And there were two girls from Whidbey Island that went.   And we became very, very good friends.   And we still are friends.   And I used to -- during the Summers -- I had completely forgotten -- during the Summers, Eleanor and I would go up to visit two of them who lived right next door -- they were cousins.   They were the only Jewish people on the Island.   And, they never, ever discussed the fact that they were Jewish up there -- it was just not mentioned.   People knew they were - -but, it was never, ever discussed.   And, they lived right next door to each other, and Eleanor would visit one, and I would visit the other.   And we did this for about three Summers.   And this is an aside, I was sort of going with my husband then -- well, not really, seriously.   And he, and a friend of his drove up one day.   They didn't know which house even I was in. (laughter)   And he knocks, and (inaudible) (laughter) in the middle of the night, and it didn't go over very well. (laughter)   But, it was really fun doing that.  And, yes, we've all just remained friends.

RB:  Isn't that remarkable?   So, your camp experience was quite significant?

AN:  Yes, yes.

RB:  In terms of long-term friendships?

AN:  Yes, yes.

RB:  Now, you mentioned that you knew your husband at that time.   When did you meet your husband?

AN:  Oh, as I said, we really sort of grew up together -- but we didn't see each other that much.   Our families knew each other -- but they were not close friends.   And we would go on these picnics together.   And he used to be the scourge of the neighborhood. (laughter)  All the stories I heard about  him. (laughter)   And, then, we really -- and, of course we were both at Temple -- religion school together.   But, we went to some of the mixers together but not exclusively, by any means.   And I think I went to his Confirmation dance, and he was confirmed a year after me.   And, he went to my Confirmation dance. (laughter)   Oh there was always a dance after Confirmation at Temple.   And then, we did see each other at high school -- off and on.  But nothing seriously.   And then, he went to Stanford for two years.   And I went to the University of Washington.   And going to Stanford, even then, was quite a coup.   And, I know his family wrote letters -- but they had very important people write letters.   And he was accepted.   And he did not like going to school.  (laughter)   So, he only went two years.   And then, he went into -- joined the Army.

RB:  So, it was a coup to get into Stanford?

AN:  Even then.

RB:  Because he was Jewish?

AN:  I don't honestly know if that was it.   I suspect that was some of it.

RB:  OK.   And so, you chose to go to the University of Washington?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  After high school?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  How did you make that decision?  What factors played a role in that?

AN:  I did want - my father was a pharmacist.   And, I was always interested in medicine.   I knew I wasn't smart enough to go to Medical School, and it was not very common then anyway for women to do it.   Nor would I have the money to do it.   So, and I knew that if I went into Nursing -- and I did very much want to go to college -- I was the only one that had gone in my family -- which was not - had nothing to do with it, but everybody -- and I knew that if I went into Nursing, I would be on campus for two years -- which I could scrape the money together to do.   But then, I would be in training at Harborview Hospital for two and a half years.   And, we had our room and board -- and nursing was as close as I could get to medicine.   So, anyways, that's really the main reason - why I -- well it was the only alternative was to go to the U of W -- there wasn't a question of going anyplace else.   And, I lived at home.   But, I guess the one thing I really wanted more than anything was to be pledged to the Alpha Epsilon Phi Sorority which I was -- and didn't expect to be.   But, at that time, there were two boys' fraternities, and two girls' sororities.   And, unfortunately, there was a great distinguishing mark between the two.   And, if you didn't get into A-E-Phi's for the girls, or Z-B-Ti's for the boys, you had very different friends.

RB:  How so?   These were the two Jewish?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  OK.

AN:  A-E-Phi, and Phi-Sigma-Sigma were the two girls.   And Zeta-Beta-Tau and S-A-M's were the two boys.   And, this sounds awful, but it was true.   Phi-Sig's and S-A-M's were considered -- for those kids who didn't make A-E-Phi, or Z-B-T.   And, it was a horrible way.   It really was horrible.   But that's just the way things were then.

RB:  Was it -- were the differences based on one's financial, or economic background, or was it --

AN:  It was social, and economics -- both.

RB:  I see.

AN:  And, I knew a lot of the girls' lives were really just ruined if they didn't -- they really, really were -- if they didn't get into A-E-Phi.   And it was just an awful system.   And why I wanted it so desperately, I don't know  -- but, I did want it.

RB:  What years - -just to mark it for --

AN:  Oh, oh that?   I started college in 1940.   And, I was on campus until 1942.   And --

RB:  So, those were during those years?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  That was happening in the sorority system?

AN:  Yes.   Yes.   And, I know you've heard it before, but Sephardics at that time were -- if you went out with a Sephardic -- which we wouldn't dream of doing it -- it was like going out with a Black person.

RB:  At that time?

AN:  At that time, it was just -- really bad.   And, I really was -unfortunately, I don't know if I just tuned it out -- but, I was not all that conscious of it -- except looking back.   And, it was a very bad situation, for a lot of people growing up Jewish then.   Because it was social and economics.   And, it played a big part on a lot of our lives.

RB:  How so?   Can you describe it, for those listening later on -- just in terms of history?   Tell us how that affected your lives.

AN:  It did affect them -- it very much affected a person's life socially -- as to whom they saw and didn't see.   And, you really, rarely crossed the line between the two fraternities and sororities.  We would have exchanges with them.   And, I honestly was not that -- I wanted to get in, and then I really wasn't that much -- about that part -- not that much involved in the sorority, because I was on Lower Campus, which was where all the medical classes were held.   So, but I know there were people that -- you know, some of the girls they weren't invited to dances and things like that.    And, it just -- for many, many years after graduating -- I know their lives were different.   They really were different socially.  And, some of them still, to this day -- it's just made a difference in - you know, it has just made quite an impact on their lives.   As far as sephardic people were concerned, it took so many years before the barrier was broken.  And, it was unfortunate.   And those of us who grew up at that time - we never forgot it, because it was just a very bad situation here.  And, I suppose a certain amount of it exists today -- but it’s not like then.

RB:  And, when you say that some of their social lives were changed forever -- do you mean that they were no longer included in certain activities?   Or, they chose not to go to certain events?   Or how --

AN:  Well, those -- you know, there are all these affairs that were given -- social affairs,   dances, parties, and  so forth.   And you know, they weren't invited.   And it did make a difference.   And I know for a couple of the women -- really until today, it still has made a difference.  And, it's just sad.   That's all I can say.

RB:  So, it sounds like it was very hurtful for --

AN:  Very, very hurtful.

RB:  And was it talked about much at the time?   Or was it just the way things stood?

AN:  No, things were just really swept under the carpet then.   They weren't talked about.  Today, everything -- and, it's so much better.   Everything's out in the open, and discussed, and so forth and so on.   Then, these things were not mentioned.   They're understood, but they weren't mentioned.  I guess it's like being Jewish at that time.   It was understood you were - -but, it wasn't mentioned.

RB:  And, so the Rush process -- what do you remember about that?  Can you discuss it?

AN:  (laughter)   Well, it was very exciting.(laughter)

RB:  Yes?

AN:  Yes.   And I know I didn't really have any clothes to wear that were quite presentable at that time.   And, my aunt bought me a dress, which was my pride and joy because it was so nice. (laughter)  And I knew I shouldn't really try -- because it was difficult.   You know, it was only $50 dollars.   But then, that was a lot of money.   But it's just -- I think -- I look back on it, and with horror.   Because it was so important to me. (laughter)   And, it shouldn't have been, but it was.   So - -and in Rush I knew we'd have to -- oh, I know Rush Night, we all stood in a line.   The new pledges at the sorority.   And then, all the boys would come and look you over and say, who they were going to date.(laughter)  And, as I say, I wasn't involved in that very much with the sorority.   And, I was on campus for two years, and then, I was at Harborview for two and a half years -- where we had classes, and worked at the same time.   And, there were about -- oh, I think 20 women in my class.   And, I was the only Jewish woman.   There was one Jewish woman from Oregon -- Portland -- in a class ahead of me.   But, we were the only two that ever took up nursing   (laughter)  for years and years and years and years.   And, I graduated in '45, because it was a longer course.   And, in my class, those of us who live in Seattle, still meet twice a year for lunch.

RB:  Is that right?

AN:  Uh-huh, yes.

RB:  Isn't that terrific.

AN:  Yes.   We had our 50th -- and it was at my house.   Oh, I guess about five years ago -- we're due for another one.   And, all the husbands came, and people came -- those that could, came from all over the country, and came -- and it was really fun.   So, -- and growing up - while I was in training, it was murder. (laughter)

RB:  How so?

AN:  It was very hard.   We had to keep up our grades.   And, I did make the Nursing Honorary -- which, I think anybody probably could do if they had a C  average.   I -- but, we - and then we had to keep up our grades.   And every few months, we'd be rotated on a different service, like Pediatrics.   Or, Obstetrics.  You know, orthopedics, or Psychology or something like that.   And we would be sent to different places.   I went to  Steilacoom which was the mental hospital at that time, for three months.  And, that was not fun.   That was in the days of restraints, and straight-jackets, and it was horrible.   It was just awful.   But -- and then, connecting the hospital and our nursing quarters, which were across the street -- was this tunnel.   And we had to keep hours.   And we had to be in at a certain time.   And, if you didn't get in at a certain time, the front door was locked.   So, you had to go through this dark tunnel (laughter) to get there.

RB:  So, you actually lived in the same quarters at that time?

AN:  Oh yes.   Yes.

RB:  So, you lived on campus?

AN:  No. I was --

RB:  Or, in the apartment?

AN:  Yes.   Do you know where Harborview Hospital is?

RB:  Yes, I do.

AN:  OK.   Now, right across the street, which is -- the building's still there. But, there were rooms - individual rooms - -and this is where all the nurses-in-training would live.

RB:  I see.

AN:  We had three meals a day, and room and board -- which, to me, was a God-send.   It really, truly was.   But, I thoroughly enjoyed nursing.(laughter)   And then, my last year, things were getting -- that's when we were in the War by then.   And we were able to join the Navy with the promise that we would go into the Navy upon graduation.   Well, I would get seasick before I even got on a boat. (laughter) But we were given $10 dollars a month -- which was sheer heaven, because it was spending money -- and a very heavy (laughter) winter coat.   So, fortunately the War was over, right after I graduated.   So, I didn't have to go into the Navy.   I don't know what I would have done.   And then, during that time, my husband had joined the Army as an infantryman, which was not for him.   He did not like taking orders, ever.  So, he became a paratrooper.   And he wore glasses.   Now, how he managed that, I don't know. (laughter)   But, he did.   And, then when he was home on leave, we would go out together.   But I went out with a lot of other boys during the Service also.  And then, after I graduated from nursing training, I worked for a year on the Psychiatric Ward at Harborview.   And at that time, again -- it was quite different than it is now.  We would keep patients in restraints.  A lot of them were drunks, who came in.   There was nothing else to do with them, so they put them there, and we would restrain them.   And, I also became engaged to my husband at that time.   It was in '45 -- the end -- in '46 I guess.   We got married in '46.   And,  since I was the youngest one working, I would have night duty.   And there was this big orderly -- this has nothing to do with Judaism (laughter)   and, there was this big orderly and he would just be there to get them off skid row and to offer assistance and keep the patients quiet.  And one night, he had let - he was a drunk also, and he had been drinking, and he let one of these patients who was drunk, out of restraints.   And, the patient came after me. (laughter)  And the orderly left - -and that was the time my husband had to pick to come up. (laughter)  So that was sort of the end of my nursing carrer and then I got married anyway.   So I just worked for a year, and that was all.

RB:  Oh.

AN:  And then, I did get married.

RB:  Oh my gosh.   What a traumatic situation.

AN:  Oh it was.  (laughter)  Anyway, as I said -- I just did a year of Psychiatric Nursing.   But, I'd never been sorry I took it.  Because with four children, it's come in very handy  (laughter) always.

RB:  Well how did you choose to go into Nursing?

AN:  As I said, I really always liked Medicine.  And, my father had a drug store up on 15th.   And, he had the Pharmacy there.  And, I just used to be down there once in a while.   I just really liked medicine.   I don't know why -- I just did.

RB:  That's all right.

AN:  So, nursing was the -- It was either Nursing or Teaching.   You know?   I didn't like teaching. (laughter)  And I knew I would have to support myself, so I wanted something that I could do.   And, you know, and I would never have to worry about it.   And this year is the first year that I didn't renew my license in nursing.

RB:  Is that right?

AN:  Uh-huh.

RB:  And how did that feel?

AN:  Oh, awful.   (laughter)   And my son said – “why did you do it?”   And I said, “well, it's about time.” (laughter)

RB:  Oh.   So you mentioned that you worked Summers at Sears.

AN:  Right.

RB:  And at other places to pay for college?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  Is that right?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  And, then, at a certain point, the Navy also helped out?   Is that right?

AN:  When I was in training, I didn't pay anything.   So, I only had to pay tuition for two years.   And, it was only $30 dollars a Quarter then.   But, it was still $30 dollars a Quarter.   So, I worked at a labor union one Summer.   And, I worked at Sears one Summer.   And then, on Holidays I would work for my uncle who had a meat market, down in the public market.

RB:  Yes.

AN:  And you know, I earned a little bit of money that way.

RB:  Was it difficult to juggle the financial cost of college with taking classes?

AN:  No, because -- for the two years, I managed.   And then, once I was in Harborview, we didn't have to pay anything.   So --

RB:  Do you think that men and women had different collegiate experiences?   Or --

AN:  I'm sure there were, but I wasn't that involved.   I really was in a completely totally different field.   And I really wasn't active in college at all.   That was always on the campus and I would have to run from where the sorority was -- barreling over campus. (laughter)   So, I don't think they were all that much different.   A lot of the women -- a lot of my friends did get -- they only went one or two years, and then, they got married.   And, it was quite common then to be married.   You know, at 19, 20 -- 21.   I didn't get married until I was 23.  By then, I was an old maid.  Quite seriously.

RB:  Really?

AN:  Really.   Yes.

RB:  For that length of time?

AN:  It is too -- a boy was expected to graduate.   A girl  really went to college to get a husband.   And just live a the social life -- there were not that many that graduated.

RB:  So, it's significant that you did graduate, and worked in your field?

AN:  Oh yes.   I guess so.   I don't know.   It's just something I wanted to do.

RB:  And then, so you met your husband early?   You grew up together.

AN:  Yes.

RB:  And dated periodically.   And at what point, did you decide that he was the one, like you said?

AN:  Oh, when he -- when (laughter) he proposed to me, I guess.   (laughter)   Actually, yes.   I don't know who was more surprised.   (laughter)  But --

RB:  Do you remember how that happened?   What was the --

AN:  Well, we were in Volunteer Park. (laughter)   We'd been on a date.   I think his father talked him into it, quite frankly.  His mother was quite ill.   In fact, she died -- just about two months before she died, she had cancer.  And, I think his father -- oh, he liked me very much.   And I was so fond of him.   He was the nicest man.   And, he told his (laughter) his son he should marry me. (laughter)   And that was it.   But, and then his father - -and then we -- after we were married -- Lawrence was just out of the service, and all he had was the money that he had earned in the service.   And he was married in his uniform.   And we were married at Temple De Hirsch.   And I had to borrow this frightful dress. (laughter)  And my mother had -- my hair was very straight.   My mother had decided I was to get a permanent.   Oh dear, you can't imagine.   Here was I in a dress far too big for me, with my hair all frizzy. (laughter)  And, we were at Temple -- and, nobody was there to open the doors.   And he came – and my mother said, “he's here -- oh, no, no, no -- you can't see the bride.”  (laughter)   But, we were married at Temple De Hirsch.  And then we had a very small reception which, I think, his father paid for at the - it was in the Olympic Hotel.   It's now the Four Seasons.   And that became a very good popular place to hold things -- it was then that people began to have a little bit more money and could afford it.   And then, on our honeymoon, we had enough money to travel around the United States for a -- was it -- well, we were going to be gone for two months, and we were gone for about six weeks.   (laughter)   So --

RB:  Was that common at the time of --

AN:  No, no it was very unusual.

RB:  I meant for a couple to travel?

AN:  No.   No.   It was most unusual.   And, I know that in 1960 -- all our children -- I guess I had all of our children then -- we went to Europe for a month -- and that was also very unusual.   But, then when we came back from our honeymoon, my husband really didn't have a job.   His father was in the ship chandlering business -- but, he had sold it.   So Lawrence didn't -- and, he wasn't trained to do anything.   So, we opened up a small -- very small -- we had some property on Virginia Street.   It was -- belonged to my husband.  And we opened up a very small store selling nautical things.   Didn't have a customer, ever.   (laughter) So, we closed that.   And, then after -- before my son was born he started buying army surplus things with a very good friend of ours.   And they would travel, and they would buy like shoe lots and then bring them back here and then sell them, and make some money that way.  And then, after our son was -- oh, a year old -- he worked for Nate Feinberg who had rags -- it's Feinberg Rags -- what do they call it?   I forgot.   And, there were a lot of -- Army mattresses on the Island of Oahu  in Honolulu.   And so, Lawrence went over there first to check it out.   And he said, yes.   And he was sure he could get them all and bring them back.  So, we went over there, and it was absolutely ideal.   We lived there for a year.   And our son was a year old.   And I guess he must have been over -- well, yes, because I got pregnant there.   And we lived in a house right on the water in Honolulu.   And we could see the Matsonia come by here. (laughter)   And the little English cruise ships.   And, there was a very small Jewish community in Honolulu.   And, one of the men who was the leader there had lived in Seattle.   So, we went - -and we go to services there on Friday night -- and everything.   And somehow or other, my husband got all the mattresses back, and they never wanted to see him on the island again -- ever. (laughter)  And then, we came back, and things didn't work out all that well.   So then, we went to Compton, which is on the outskirts of Los Angeles.   And, he worked for a friend of his father's in the steel business there.   And, we just really didn't like living there.   And so, we stayed there for two years.   And then, we both wanted to come back to Seattle.   So that -- and I had our daughter -- our oldest daughter was born there.   And the other three children were all born in Seattle.   In fact, my son who was the oldest was born in the same room that my husband had been born in at Swedish Hospital.   But anyways, we came back to Seattle, and still didn't have a job.   And he started -- somebody told him -- well, the bank, I think, told him that Boeing needed sub-contract work done.   He didn't know the first thing about (laughter) machinery or anything like that.   But, that's how we started out.   And, we had this little, tiny shop down in Harbor Island that didn't have any -- the toilet was outdoors about a half a block away.   And it was freezing cold -- because I'd go down sometimes, and I'd get a sitter, and go down at night and help him put these little parts together (laughter) and we'd have to go out in the freezing cold -- and, if we wanted to go to the bathroom.   And then he opened -- and then we built -- and then he decided this -- he wanted to be closer to home.   So, things were going better financially.   And, he was beginning to make some money.   And so, he built his first building was -- on Rainier Avenue.   And it was just about five minutes from our house where we lived at that time.

RB:  Where did you live when you got back to Seattle?

AN:  Oh, when we came back to Seattle from Compton -- I think it was about two years.   And he just really didn't find anything to do.   And things were getting rough.   Then, we lived in a rented house in Montlake.   And then, when he started this -- then we bought a house in Mount Baker, and that's where we lived for 38 years.   And --

RB:  So his shop was --

AN:  Yes, his shop was (laughter)   And, after things became a little more successful, we put a pool in our house in Mount Baker.   He never liked working early anyways -- so he wouldn't go to work until 10.   He'd come home at lunch and have a swim.   Anyways.   As soon as we scraped together a little bit of money, we bought our first building -- or our first vacant lot, and sold it at a profit.  And so he, from that time on -- as much as he was doing -- the company was called Nieder Manufacturing Company. And he did it -- he just really did subcontract work for Boeing.   And we also started buying real estate at that time, and things just got to be quite nice financially.  So --

RB:  So, you had your children then in those early years?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  And you were home raising children?   But also helping him, it sounds like with the business?

AN:  Just a little.   Yes, a little bit.  When he needed somebody, I'd come down and help.   But mostly, I was active in Girl Scouts, and Camp Fire Girls.   And, anything for our children.  And, also in the P.T.A. at school.   And, a little bit at Temple - -not that much.  And then, when my youngest daughter was 3 years old, I started becoming active in the community.  And, I would take her with me to meetings and everything.   But I never -- I wasn't until that time.

RB:  So, it was a huge job, though, raising four children?

AN:  Yes, well you just did. (laughter)

RB:  Can you tell me how that worked though?   You know?   How did you and your husband share child-bearing responsibilities?

AN:  Oh --

RB:  Household duties?

AN:  We did not share. (laughter)  I really took care of the children and the household.   He didn't.   Although I always had a car.   So, I was very lucky.   And, our first apartment was on Phinney -- and that's where our son was born.   And then we went to Honolulu -- no, then we went to Honolulu for a year.   And then, we came back.   And I think we stayed with my mother -- my mother had re-married.   Actually a month before I got married.   So, I can't forget our anniversaries.  And then, we stayed with her for a couple of -- about a month, I guess -- and then, we went to Honolulu.   And no -- we went -- after we came back from Honolulu, we stayed with her for about a month, and then, we went down to Compton, and then, we came back, and we rented this small home that was in, in Montlake.   And then we bought a house in Mount Baker and that's the only other house we've lived -- that was our -- the first house we owned, and then this one.

RB:  So you were the primary --

AN:  Yes.

RB:  Child-rearing person in the family.

AN:  Which was very common then.  You didn't share responsibilities then.   The husband went to work, and you stayed home. (laughter)

RB:  It sounds like you also helped with decisions though, around buying property?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  Is that the policy?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  Could you describe that a little bit?   Your role?

AN:  Oh.   Well, we would -- you know, he -- if he found something then we would always go look at it, and decide -- well, could we do it?   Or, could we not?   And how we could do it?  And, I guess it was a policy of ours -- we would never, ever borrow money.   Other than the first house -- our house we bought -- we had a mortgage, of course, on that.   But, other than that -- we never really did borrow money.   If we couldn't afford to buy it, we didn't buy it.   And these were mutual decisions.   And, as far as anything concerning the children -- that was you know, very big -- of course, we would mutually decide it -- neither one of us would ever make a decision without the other.   And, they all -- of course, they all went to Temple De Hirsch Religion School.   And they all were -- confirmed and graduated from there.   And, --

RB:  What were the greatest rewards or challenges in raising children?

AN:  Our children all went to John Muir Grade School, which is in this area.   And it was so much different then.   I know our son was very bright -- but, he was not a good student, until he had this fabulous teacher in the 6th grade.   And she really just turned him on.   And, the big difference was when he went to  Franklin -- and this was only a matter of -- what was it -- 2, 4, 6, 8 -- 8 years difference -- well, I guess it was -- when he went to Franklin, there were very few Black children.   There was no problem.   If anything, it was more of an antisemitic problem but certainly, not a racial problem.   When my third daughter went to Franklin, she was actually locked in once, because there was so much unrest.   She learned absolutely nothing in high school -- which was partly her fault.   She didn't really care to.   But, it was more disturbances than actual education.   And so, then we didn't want our youngest child to go there -- to high school there.   So, she went to Roosevelt, which was still a very good high school.   So, the biggest challenge of they're growing up was -- again, when we moved into Mount Baker, it was rather antisemitic.   And, I think, our son -- he was active in Scouts.   And my husband had been an Eagle Scout.   And, of course, he wanted our son to be an Eagle Scout.   So, he was Scout Leader for a while.   And, I know the Scout troop was antisemitic.   And there were problems at first.   And, of course, it worked its way -- it worked out but -- that was a problem then.

RB:  Do you remember any specific incidents that, you know, demonstrated the antisemitism?   Or --

AN:  Oh, I think that there was one woman who was not very pleasant.   And, I think that she had made several remarks to my husband about it.

RB:  This was another parent? Of a --

AN:  Yes, of a Scout leader.

RB:  And this was several years after World War II.   Was it the early '60's?

AN:  Oh, yes.  Yes.    That was the biggest.   That was the worst problem at that time.   As far as discipline -- John Muir was a very, very good school.   And all my children went.   It's completely different now.   And I was active, you know, in the P.T.A. there then.   They had no problem.   They all had birthday parties, and everybody in the whole -- and, we did have a pool.   And so, then the whole class would come, and they would have a swimming party, and stuff like that.   But that was really the only active antisemitism that we really, really encountered.   And then, the neighborhood did begin to change.   When we moved into it, we were probably the youngest family.   And when we left, we were the oldest. (laughter)   Then, more and more Jewish families started coming into the neighborhood.   So, it gradually just --

RB:  Changed?

AN:  Yes, changed.

RB:  When you first moved in, was it a Catholic neighborhood, or --

AN:  No, no.

RB:  How would you describe it?

AN:  The Presbyterian Church, probably was the strongest church.   There was not a Catholic Church in this area.

RB:  So that was really more the Catholics were more on Capitol Hill?

AN:  Yes, yes.

RB:  And different other parts of the city?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  I see.

AN:  And, the Presbyterian Church was -- again -- it was quite a closed corporation.   We didn't even attempt to challenge anything that was going on with the boundaries then.   There was no need to, and we just didn't do it -- but, you know there were the few Jews, and the Presbyterians.

RB:  And, what values did you try to inculcate in your children? 

AN:  Well, they -- of course, we would have Friday night services.  And we would light the candles and things here.   I wish I had had more.   I grew up Jewish, but I didn't have a Jewish background, as far as knowledge was concerned.   Temple?   They went to Temple their whole lives.   But, we didn't learn about Judaism the way that kids today do.   In fact, I went to Florence Melton School last year for the first time, just so -- I really feel a great lack of not knowing that much about Judaism.   Other than the Holidays, you know?   And, we did all the traditional things.   And, we would always go to my mother's for the Holidays.   And then, when she wasn't able to do it, then I always had the Holidays here.   And you know, there's always the Jewish foods, and everything.   But, as far as a real true knowledge of why being Jewish?   No, it was lacking in my background.   And I know it was lacking in their background.

RB:  Interestingly, you have been very active though --

AN:  We've always been part.  My husband and I were always part of the Jewish community.

RB:  Yes.

AN:  Always.

RB:  And, maybe this would be a good time to -- actually, our tape is just about over.   We'll have to switch tapes.

AN:  Fine.

RB:  OK?   But, on the next tape, it would be wonderful if we could spend some time talking about a lot of your community service work.   And I know that you have done a great deal -- both within the Jewish community, as well as the community at large.

AN:  All right.

RB:  Does that seem OK?

AN:  That sounds just fine.

RB:  OK. We'll be right back.

 

END OF CD 1

 

RB:  This is Roz Bornstein, and I'm back with Ann Nieder, at Ann's home.   And the date is still July 11th, 2001.   And we are continuing to gather Ann's oral history for the "Weaving Women's Words" project of the Jewish Women's Archive.   And, Ann, do I still have your permission to interview you and tape you?

AN:  Yes, you do.

RB:  Thank you very much.  We left off at a place where we were going to talk about your community service work.   So, why don't I let you describe some work that you find very important and meaningful.  

AN:  As I said, when my daughter was 3-years-old, I started to take her with me.  And, I first became active at the Sisterhood of Temple De Hirsch.   She would come to the meetings with me.   And we would be in the kitchen, or whatever. (laughter)  We had a monthly luncheon.   And I would be helping cook believe it or not.   Anyways, then in 1961, I was President of the Sisterhood.   And then, after that, would be in 1966 -- I became President of the Seattle Section of Brandeis University National Women's Committee.  And then, Bernice Stern approached seven women who were becoming active in the Jewish community, and said she would like to put on a leadership seminar for just us -- because they wanted us to become active in the Council of Jewish Women.   So, we would go to her house.   And there were seven, and she gave us all these pointers about leadership and what we should be doing.   And I was always in awe of that woman, and still am (laughter) to this day.   She's accomplished so much.   And then, in 1968, I became President of the National Council of Jewish Women.   And, I know -- at that time, Edith Weinstein was also active.   And several of us thought -- wouldn't it be nice if we could build a house -- some kind of living quarters for people who had retired -- Jewish people.  And wanted a place -- sort of like, you know - that they were giving up their homes or anything -- it was going to be called a Retirement Home.   It was frowned upon by National Council, because nothing like this had ever been done.   And they just didn't want us to do it.   And, Edith never knew what the word "no" meant.   So we did go ahead with this.   And, she really was the driving force behind  Council House.   And we took a survey of the community to see if, in reality, there were enough people that would be interested.  And we had -- oh, we must have had at least 100 responses and in the affirmative, that said "yes" -- that was very much needed.   And yes, they would be interested.   And a lot of them put up a $50 dollar deposit, because, they really wanted to live there.   Well, of course, the upshot was (laughter) that a lot of them changed their minds.   And it really was -- it became half-Jewish, and half-Gentile.   But, it is still a Jewish presence.   And the building of it was -- we took out a loan with HUD, which is still in existence.   That's Housing of Urban Development?   I think that's right.   And, that loan is, as far as I know, is still being paid off.   And they put up the money.   What we were -- because of that -- of course, it had to be non-sectarian.   And, what we were allowed to do was to build what is called today -- the roof garden -- to Council House.   And, we could furnish that.   And that did, essentially, belong to Council, although it was part of Council House.   So we went out, and we did have a fund-drive for that.   And, we originally approached ten Jewish men in the community to ask them if they would put up $1,000 dollars, so that we would have start-up money for the project.   And they all did, and they were all paid back.   But, I think it was a loan for about a year or two -- non-interest.   And then, we had a fund drive to raise money to furnish the roof garden, and build it.   It's enclosed, but it is called a roof garden top.   And, Edith really supervised everything.   And, it was quite a huge project.   And, certainly, none of us -- we had a lot of help from some of the men in the community.   And, Bernice's husband was one, and my husband was one, and Edith’s husband was one.   And, eventually it was built. (laughter)   And, it's still there today, and it's quite -- it's a very good thing, although it's changed from the original intent.   And, I don't know the proportion of Jews to Gentiles.  But there are Jewish people that live there.   And it has fulfilled quite a need in the community, and I know a lot of the organizations have meetings and things there.

RB:  Excuse me, Ann.   What year was this, that Council House was founded?   Approximately?

AN:  Well, I was President.   So, it was 1968, when we started thinking about it, and doing the surveys, and started raising money.   And I think it was completed -- Oh shoot -- we had a kick-off dinner to raise money in 1969.   And I do believe it was completed in 1971.

RB:  I see.   So you were the President of the --

AN:  The National Council of Jewish Women at that time.

RB:  I see.

AN:  Yes.

RB:  And, Edith Weinstein was the --

AN:  She was the Chairman of the Building Committee, yes.   And, she really devoted her life to it.   And I know -- I don't know if anybody's mentioned it to you -- but I know today they have -- every month -- they give an Edith Weinstein -- it was named in honor of her mother-in-law -- an Ida Weinstein luncheon that the Council puts on for the people that live at Council House.

RB:  That’s remarkable.   Can you tell us a little bit about Council House for those outside of Seattle, for those who may not know about it?

AN:  It is a -- presently, and from the days the door opened -- although that was not the original intent.   It is a low-income, retirement housing for people 60 to 65 or older.   Some people pay their full share and some are subsidized by HUD.  So, they have both there.   And I don't know that the people know who is who?   Or certainly it shouldn't have been common knowledge.   And, they have monthly programs.  And, there is a Council House Board that runs Council House although they're -- and they hire an Executive Director for the daily functioning of Council House.   I was on the Board for many, many years.   But I've not been for many years also.   But, I think that everything still functions in the same manner.   And, they're always National Council representatives on the board.   But they do choose from the whole Jewish Community -- although there's nothing that says a Gentile person can't serve either.

RB:  So, what were your responsibilities then, with this project?  Did you coordinate the different groups of people involved in the Project HUD?   What did you do?

AN:  Originally, I really was just responsible for the very beginnings of it.   As far as the actual construction of -- we did have an advisor that we paid, who was a financial and building advisor.   And, he would -- he'd really, really was the one that gave us all the background.   And he ran things to a certain degree.   And you know, we trusted him.   And relied on him.   And, he and Edith worked together.   But, Edith did the bulk of the planning, and the arranging, and was in charge of the construction.

RB:  And did you work with the National Board at the time?

AN:  No, we did not work with the National Board.   As I said, they really were opposed to the idea.   And we really did it without their sanction.

RB:  And so, you really drew from the support of the local Seattle community?

AN:  Yes, and there were some people -- Jewish people -- in the city who also were very opposed to our doing anything like this and, were rather vocal about it.

RB:  And, do you know why?  What was the opposition about?

AN:  I think some thought it would be -- never be successful.   And that it was a huge undertaking, which it was.   And, quite a financial responsibility - which it was.   But -- and I think there was another organization that really wanted to do it.   And we just got there before they did.  And so, that was some of it.

RB:  And now, do you know approximately how many residents currently live in Council House?

AN:  I think there's about -- I just did ask -- it's about 97 percent full.   And, I think they take about 104 people.   I don't remember correctly.   But, there's always a turnover.   People die.   So quite a few go to Kline Galland from there.   And some decide it's not for them, and leave.   But I think it's always been about -- at least 95 percent occupied.

RB:  What were the greatest rewards and challenges in this project for you?

AN:  The one thing that was the most frustrating is -- we had to abide by HUD's procedures.   And, whatever they wanted, we had to do.   Consequently, the kitchens are really non-existent.  They're terribly small.   And, in the beginning the residents did not have to have dinner downstairs.   And that was always a big headache -- was trying to find somebody to run the kitchen, and satisfy everybody and get people to eat, so that it would sustain itself.   Now, I believe they must eat dinner.   At least they have to pay for it.  And, I don't know if -- I think there's always the coffee bar, but I don't think lunch and breakfast is there.   But, the most frustrating thing was really working with HUD.   And, their regulations.  It's been very rewarding.   I know that most of the people that live there are very happy.   And, they have all kinds of programs for them.   And, there's a bus pick-up there to take them to the JCC -- those that want to go -- for The Golden Age Program.  And, I know Daisy Israel did the Programming for years.  And she did a fantastic job.

RB:  Is that right?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  So, not only did -- were you instrumental in creating a physical place for people to live -- but, it sounds like you were also instrumental in helping out with their lifestyle in terms of programming, and taking people to JCC.   And --

AN:  Yes.

RB:  And, food and preparation and all of that.

AN:  Yes, yes.

RB:  That's phenomenal.   And, so are you still active with Council House?   Or have you --

AN:  No.   I haven't been – I’ve moved on.  I haven't been -- no, I've not been involved with it, probably for ten years.   But, I keep in touch, every once in a while.

RB:  Anything else about Council House, before we move on, that you think would be significant, historically, or --

AN:  Well, let's see.  I think (laughter) it was important for me, personally.  (laughter)  The most horrendous thing for me was -- I'm not an extemporaneous speaker.   And I must write down -- every single word - when I have to speak publicly.   And, we were having this big fund-raiser dinner, and the lights went out. (laughter) And, it was horrible.   And, I had to keep things going.(laughter)   And this is not my forte.   Fortunately, they came back on about ten minutes later.   So that was all -- but it was a good experience.   So --

RB:  Well, why don't you describe some of the other opportunities that you've been involved in?

AN:  Let's see -- then in -- oh, in 1959, this really goes back there.   Twenty of us starting -- they're all Jewish women, of course -- started, I think, one of the first financial stock investment groups -- and we -- you know, we really did quite well.   And we were together for about ten years.   And then, of course, interest just petered out.  But that was my very first exposure (laughter) to anything financial.

RB:  How did this group get started?

AN:  Oh, I think some of us just decided that we needed to be informed about stocks.   And, we put in $25 dollars a month. And we would have a broker, from a different brokerage house come, and give us advice.   And then he would leave, and then we would vote on what to buy, and what not to buy.  And at the end, we just did this -- you know, interest was waning, and people were traveling, and everything.   So that was that.   But it was -- that was my first venture into anything to do with finances.   Then in --

RB:  Excuse me, was that a Jewish group?

AN:  Oh yes.   Just Jewish - yes.

RB:  Through the Temple?   Or --

AN:  Oh no.   No, we were just friends, and we all got together, and decided this is something we should do.   That we needed to do.   This was part of our learning experience.   (laughter)  But, it was fun.

RB:  That's terrific.   And, remind me -- how many years you were together?

AN:  I think it was ten years.

RB:  Ten years?

AN:  Anyway -- yes.   Which was a long time.   Yes.

RB:  And, it was just strictly for women?   Husbands were not --

AN:  Oh, no.   No, no, no, no, no.   They were forbidden.  They couldn't even give us advice.  (laughter)     It was the very first time I ever bought any stocks on my own.  My husband really was never very much in favor of the stock market, personally.   So it was the first time I'd ever bought stock. (laughter)

RB:  Did you learn a lot about stock through the process?

AN:  Oh yes.   Oh, yes.   Yes.

RB:  That's great.

AN:  It was fun.   We would meet for lunch and discuss all this.   And then, in -- oh, from 1974 to '78 -- I became active in Anti-Defamation League.   And, I was a Vice-President for all that time.   But, I had told them I would never be President.  And, I am still on the Executive Board, and have always been involved in ADL.

RB:  What led you to take that position?

AN:  There were not very many women involved with ADL at that time.  And somebody had suggested that I become active in it.  So, I served on the Board.  And then, I just -- something I really, really am very close to, and think so much of the work that they do.   So, I've always been involved in it.

RB:  What did you do during that time for ADL?  

AN:  I was on the Education Committee, quite a long time.   And then -- what year was it?   It was just at the first beginnings of people becoming aware of the Holocaust victims that had settled in Seattle.   Nobody had really volunteered very much about it.   Or had done very much about it.   And, I've got --

RB:  So, this is during the '70's?

AN:  It was around in the early 1970's -- everybody was just becoming aware of the fact that we had several refugee families from the Holocaust Era -- living in Seattle.   There had been one meeting, but nothing much had been done.  And then, some of us were talking about it at the ADL Board, and we thought it would really make people aware of what had happened, if we had a big community meeting.  There were about five people who had never, ever, ever discussed the fact that they were Holocaust survivors.   They agreed to give a little bit of their background.  It was held in Olympia, in the capital, on a Sunday afternoon.   And the Governor opened the Conference, and it was just a huge turnout --- both Jewish and Gentile people came but mostly Jewish, of course.   And quite a few of the Legislators were there.   And, so many people, including myself, really were not that much aware of what had happened.   It was just heart rendering - and that's what the tape shows.   Of these people who had survived the Holocaust.   And we had one man who had liberated those survivors from one of the camps.   And he also spoke.   And it was just -- it was one of the most touching things I've ever been involved in.   And, I co-chaired it with another woman.  And, the man who was the rescuer and one of the survivors have kept a friendship all these years.   I mean it's just -- and one of -- and this woman I'm referring to as Bronka Serebrin --- and of course, she speaks at all the schools now and has, ever since that time.   Her sister, I think for many, many, many years after that -- would still never admit to the fact. And, from that time on… we had two more open meetings -- one with children of the survivors and the parents.   And it was sort of a presentation at one of the theaters.   And we did it, I believe, for three years.   And then, interest started to wane a little bit.   So, we stopped doing it.   And then, of course, as an outgrowth of that, the Surviving Generation of Holocaust Survivors was started.  And that's become very, very active.   And it took over the roles -- so ADL really hasn't been that involved in it any more.

RB:  That's incredible.   So, a large part of your work in ADL was really helping to raise the issue from the very beginning of what the Holocaust --

AN:  Yes.  At that time, yes.

RB:  ... did.

AN:  Yes.

RB:  How did that affect your personally?

AN:  As I said, you know, you read all these things -- but nothing really touches you.  But, when you hear it personally, it's just -- it was just heart rendering to think that these people have survived, and live a very normal, ordinary life.  And, this is just something I would never, ever forget.   It's probably -- I imagine, it is probably just about the most important thing I've ever done.   And I can't say that I did very much of it.   But, you know, it's always the Executive Director that does the most work.   But I was involved with it.   And, I'm so glad I was.

RB:  And, this particular event, really set in motion other very important events?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  You mentioned Bronka Serebrin and others?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  That continue to speak out.

AN:  Oh yes.   There's quite a core of speakers that go into the different schools.   And they usually have a one-day seminar.  A lot of the schools put it on.   And, ADL sometimes does.   And Bronka usually speaks at it, or somebody that is a survivor will speak -- and tell them their experiences.   Then the kids - you think they wouldn't be interested.  And, of course, after Stephen Spielberg made the movie -- and, we did show it one year for high school students, it was a complimentary thing.  When they would -- they'd bus the students in to see it.   And it was held at -- I don't remember the name of the theater -- one of the big theaters.  We did it.   And we thought -- well, we didn't know what the reaction would be.   And there wasn't a sound.   And you know, it was three hours until after it was over.   Not a sound.   And, we had no idea if kids would just turn off and walk out -- or what?   But it was amazing.

RB:  What motivates you to do such tremendous organizing work?   What personal factors motivate you?

AN:  I wish I could say I was this huge, altruistic person.   I just really like it.   I do enjoy it.   I like being involved.  I like seeing things done.   And there's no great (laughter) hidden agenda.

RB:  What parts do you most enjoy?   And that motivate you that way?

AN:  I guess I feel -- well, Number One -- growing -- you know, after my children started going to school full-time, I had the time.   And, I don't particularly care to play cards.   And, I just wanted to be busy.   And, of course, working was unheard of.   I didn't have to.  And, Jewish women just didn't.   So, I just wanted to be busy and involved in things.  And, it's just nice to be - -to know what's going on in the community, and being part of it.   And, seeing things changed for the better.   And, there's no huge big factor.   It's just work that I really take pleasure out of doing, and fortunately can do.   So, I have the time, and I'm able to do it.

RB:  How did you manage to balance family obligations with this volunteer work?

AN:  Well, I was always home when my kids came home from school.   And then after, they were no longer here,  I was still involved.   But my husband had only one demand, that dinner had to be on the table at 6:00 o'clock. (laughter)  So, I juggled. (laughter)  As long as dinner was ready when he came home and wanted  it, it was fine.   He would really -- and weekends, I always spent with him.

RB:  So, it sounds as though he was quite supportive of your volunteer efforts?

AN:  Yes, he was always -- well, financially -- and just letting me do it - yes.   And he really, as long as I was around when he wanted me around -- then it was fine.   Then I could do what I wanted to do - during the day. (laughter)

RB:  Well there are more things on your list here.

AN:  Oh.

RB:  So, I'd love to hear more.

AN:  Let's see then -- I was President of the Washington State Jewish Historical Society from '81 to '83.    In 1973, I was asked -- I was Vice President of the Jewish Education Committee for the Jewish Federation.   And, we started a Jewish Women’s' Awareness Institute.   We had meetings prior to that -- to see what the Jewish women in Seattle really wanted.   And, the big thing seemed to be that they wanted more education.   So, it was during the day -- and Kay Pomerantz was the Director.   And she was the wife of Rabbi Pomerantz from Herzl.   And, she and I put together the agenda, and we would have rabbis or lay people teach the classes.   And they were for -- at least four years -- they were extremely well attended.   And, they were really interesting.  And that's when we started teaching Yiddish.   And, as an outgrowth of that, really -- we have a whole different group now that is really sponsoring a -- you know, there’s this Yiddish group -- and they're very active.   But it originally started at that time.   It's fun to see these things evolve.   But -- and then, Kay and I -- had a wish -- and that was to have a Jewish museum in Seattle because there's nothing on the West Coast.   And a lot of families who had come to settle here had things from Europe that they had brought with them -- or, just Jewish artifacts.  And, it was a shame to see them just being sold -- you know, at garage sales, or just given to their children who didn't want them.   And we really did a thorough study for about three years.   We had once been promised the old sanctuary at the Temple De Hirsch -- that it could be turned into a Museum.  And then, the man who was going to put up the money backed out.   And at that time, we really didn't have any other great resource.   So, it's still a wish.   (laughter)  But, from that -- that's how I became -- and then, we -- the Jewish Archives had been started about three years prior to that.   So, Kay and I went to their Board meeting and said – “would they incorporate into their By-Laws, the possibility of there being a Jewish Museum?”   And, they said “yes.”   And we did work together and really -- we're still talking about it -- but nothing's happened.   But that's when I became involved in the Washington State Jewish Society.   And, while I was President, we put on this big exhibit at the Museum of History and Industry called "The Coat of Many Colors".  And we borrowed -- we sent out a community notice, and letters and everything.  And people loaned some of their prize possessions -- and MOHAI is quite large.   And, we used up about half of it, anyway, with the exhibit, which was on for a month.   And, it was so exciting.    And, all these great things.   And Howard Droker really chaired it.   So, it was --

RB:  What year approximately was this?

AN:  I think it was about 1968 or -- no it had to be later than that.   It was when I was President.   It was in '81 -- between '81 and '83 -- and I don't know which year that was.     But it was called "The Coat of Many Colors".   And, we worked up a syllabus to teach the different grades.   Jewish religion schools or private schools.   And, it was used for a while.   But, it was really very, very successful.   And then, also, we put on the play "The Dybbuk" at Ezra Bessaroth.   And Rabbi Angel - -I think he's a Rabbi in New York -- but he is from Seattle.   He came.   And I don't remember if he acted in it -- or just was a Moderator.  But it was quite well done.   And then, during this time -- I was also sort of active in the Gentile community -- I was active on United Way.  And, they had an arm of that -- which was quite active -- was called Council of Planning Affiliates.  COPA.    And, I chaired a study about community -- how many social services should be brought back to the communities to handle -- which went nowhere(laughter)   It was a two-year study, with a big booklet.   And then, I served on quite a few United Way Committees.  And I know that Council, with Junior League, started a volunteer bureau, under the auspices of the United Way.   And, I was not President when that was started.   But I did serve on that Committee too.   Then in 1976, I also became active in the Elder Citizen's Coalition, which was a community coalition of older people that were concerned with problems of the aging at that time.   I was secretary of that for a couple of years.  And that sort of disbanded, (laughter) and went by the wayside.

RB:  How did you get involved in the secular activities?

AN:  I think probably some of it was because I was active in Council.  And, Council was very active in the Gentile community, as well as the Jewish Community.   And they did -- we were -- on a coalition basis with the Junior League, and the YWCA and different organizations like that.    I am quite sure that's how my name was mentioned, and I became active in it.   And then, I became active in the U of W.   And, I served on a couple of advisory boards.  And then, we decided that we needed what was called Friends of Suzzalo Library -- which is the main library at the University of Washington.   And that was -- started in -- well, in-- it started about 1992 -- and I was President of that in 1994 for two years.   And, I've really -- it's just quite nice to be active out at the U again -- I do love it.

RB:  Tell us a little bit --

AN:  Even on the fringes. (laughter)   I'm not a librarian. (laughter)

RB:  Tell us what the rewards are of that work?

AN:  It's just a whole different community and area of interest -- and quite different from anything I had done.   And I have thoroughly enjoyed the people I've met.   And I still am quite active in it. 

RB:  Excuse me.

AN:  Yes.

RB:  The advisory boards -- what was your tasks or project?

AN:  Well the first thing I was - they're called Visiting Committees.    Each school has a Visiting Committee which is an  advisory committee.   It's sort of in name only -- but you do offer advice to the school.  And, you meet once or twice a year.   And then, once a year, there's a President's Lunch at the U, and everybody who's on an advisory -- on a Visiting Committee, is invited to the luncheon.  And then, there's a cocktail party at his house.   And, it is just fun.  (laughter)   Makes you feel terribly important.  (laughter)

RB:  What types of advice are offered?

AN:  Well, we would --- anybody that was -- anybody that was an Officer -- anybody that was a friend to the library board was part of the Visiting Committee for the Library.   And, we did raise money.   That was our prime function.   And also to acquaint the Committee of -- the community of the different phases of library work at the U.   And we would raise money -- and that money was to be used -- and is still used for things that were not budgeted in the library's budget -- like documentaries, or journals, or things that -- you know, their budget is very, very tight.   And these are things they would like to have, but couldn't afford to have.   So, we'd raise money for that.   And then, in 1999, the Visiting Committee thought that it would be very nice to start a memorial in honor of Warren G. Magnuson, who was our outstanding Senator.

RB:  Could you describe his role in Washington -- you know, in Seattle history?

AN:  He was quite a personality -- although (laughter) I never knew him personally. But, he was instrumental.  He was very, very liberal.  He had quite a personal history, that only he could have, I guess. (laughter)   And, he married very late in life. And I guess he was considered -- he liked to drink.   He liked women.  But once he got married, he settled down.   (laughter)  But, he was just very memorable by anybody who knew him.   And, there was a group of -- I guess they would be considered young interns.   And they were called "The Bumble Bees".   And they actually worked with him in Washington, D.C.  And we thought it would be very nice to start this memorial, in his honor, with money for a scholarship.  And so, we started it.   We had a fund-raiser.  And we had a six-person, panel discussion, that first year of ex-Bumble-Bees.   Three of them happened to be Jewish.   And it was the most hilarious fun I have ever been to.   And I can tell you that first-off. (laughter)

RB:  In what way?   What was funny?

AN:  Oh, there were stories of Magnuson.   I mean, you would just have to be there to hear the stories about the way he was so well loved.   It was just amazing.   And the stories were so funny.   But, you found these six people who -- had all become quite successful in their own right.   But, they just adored the man.   And sometimes, (inaudible)   (laughter)   But just to hear the stories that would come -- it was fabulous.   And we did it again the next year -- but, it was still good -- but there's never anything like the first time.   Anyways -- and then, I'm currently serving on the Nursing Visiting Committees.   So it is sort of getting back involved a little bit in that -- which is fun.

RB:  How does that feel to get back into Nursing?

AN:  It's nice to keep current.   And I do like keeping current with what's going on.  And, of course, the Nursing School has been Number One in the country for at least the last ten years. (laughter)

RB:  Isn't that something.

AN:  So, I really do enjoy that experience.   It's nice to be involved in things that are different, and I have been for many years.

RB:  Isn't that something.   And, you mentioned that you received some awards?

AN:  Oh yes.

RB:  When you were at (inaudible)?

AN:  Oh, I would like to say something though -- Council started a tutoring program in the public schools.   And they were the first -- the very first one that started tutoring.

RB:  In public schools?

AN:  Yes.

RB:  In the Seattle public schools?

AN:  Yes, the Seattle Public Schools.   And, it was a tremendously successful.   And I was involved in that.   And we were taught by one of the ex-school teachers -- and it's like a tutorial -- so she's darling.   And she trained us.   And it was an extensive training.  And it was -- my first student was from -- John Muir.   And he was a boy from China.   And he didn't speak very good English.   And there was no such thing as English as a Second Language Program (laughter) at that time.  So I was fumbling my way through -- And I used pictures.   And he was this darling boy that really was anxious to learn.  And, finally, I think I had him for a year.   And, he was speaking fairly good - -not because of me.  But it was - I'm teaching him.   And, at the end of the year, his family -- his mother called.   Could she come and visit at my house?   And she came with her husband, and his name was Sook Bo and they came and they visited.  And she -- you know, she thanked me for helping him.  It was more fun than anything else.  And, then when he left I said -- well, you know, “Good bye Sook Bo.”   "Oh no, I'm Americanized now.   I'm Bob."   (laughter)   But it was Council that started the very first.   And, of course, it just grew and grew and grew from that.   And, I was involved with some of the schools -- different School Committees at that time.   I don't quite frankly remember what they all were.   Anyways -- and then, I did -- in 1982, I won -- I was awarded the National Conference of Christians and Jews Award.   And, at the same time, it was Father Sullivan, who was quite well-known in the Gentile community and Lenny Wilkins, who was a coach there.  (laughter)  Who was also -- so that was very exciting.   My children came home for it. (laughter)    I don't know why I won it. (laughter)

RB:  But what does this award represent?   What type of service?

AN:  It is service in the community.   And it is just an award for - it is just recognizing service in the general community.   And, it is Christians and Jews.   So, it was very nice.   And it was the first time that I had won anything.   It was very exciting. (laughter)

RB:  And so you said that your children flew in from out of town?

AN:  Yes.   They had no choice. (laughter)   And then, in 1983, I was  awarded the Elsa Levinson Award from Brandeis.   The Seattle Chapter of Brandeis.   And she was a very dynamic woman in the Seattle Jewish Community.

RB:  Can you describe her?

AN:  She was the one that started the Seattle Chapter of Brandeis in Seattle.   And, she was very, very involved with that.  I believe she was President -- I'm quite sure she was the President of the National Council of Jewish Women.   She was somewhat active at Temple -- but, not all that much.  But she was a very, very vibrant woman.   And, nobody ever questioned her.   What she said, you do -- you do. (laughter)  And this was -- after she died, she died fairly young.   And, this was established in her honor, I believe.   And then, in 1987, I won the Anti-Defamation League Distinguished Community Service Award.   And then, in 1995, I was awarded the Broadway Hall of Fame Award.    Broadway High School is no longer in existence.   But they have this very, very strong Alum Group -- and they meet once a year for lunch.  And it's exceedingly well attended.   And, it just never ceases to amaze me -- people come from all over to go to this.   And, it's -- you know, Broadway hasn't been in existence for probably 50 years, I think.   But what they do is raise money for scholarships for Seattle Central Community College, which is on the premises of where the old Broadway High School was.   And then, in 1998, I received the Hanna G. Solomon Award -- National Council of Jewish Women.  And that's about it.   And now, I am just having fun. (laughter)   And, my children - my son -- we haven't discuss them -- anyways --

RB:  What's -- can you name your children for us?

AN:  Mike was born in 1947.   And, he is a dentist -- or was a dentist on Whidbey Island. He retired about five years ago, after my husband died.   And, Susan was born in 1949, and she lives in New York with her husband, and child.   And Sam is just entering college this year.   And, then Janice was born in 1951.   And she was a Special Ed teacher for a while.   She is not married.   And she's living in San Francisco.   And, my youngest daughter is Penny.   And she is just in the process of moving to Sun Valley.  And she has two children.   Mike has two children from one wife.   And another child from another wife.   And, my husband died in 1995, and Mike was ready to retire anyway.   So, he's handling a lot of the real estate now.   And so that takes care of them.  (laughter)

RB:  Can you describe your experience of being a grandmother?

AN:  Oh, there's nothing like it. (laughter)

RB:  How so?

AN:  Well, my grandson helps here now too.   They each have an office in my house now.   So, Mike used to come down quite a bit.   He's not coming down as much, because his son, Daniel, is doing a lot of the work.   And Dan's here about four days out of the week.   So that's -- and my granddaughter, his daughter is -- was living in Eugene -- She does Social Work.  Now, she's moved back to Seattle.  So I see a lot more of her.  They're delightful.  And then, his youngest daughter is going to B.C.C.   And Penny's children are still quite young.   They're -- oh, they're 12 and 14.   11 and 14.  And, my daughter -- granddaughter in New York is -- I just went back there for her graduation from high school.  (laughter)  And she's a darling.   And was never a typical teenager.   I guess no one ever really is (laughter)   So it's just fun to have them.   And they're growing up nicely.

RB:  How would you compare your parenting style what that of your mother's and then, that of your children? 

AN:  Well, I guess my children -- today, all you hear about are the horrible teenage years.   We didn't experience that when our kids were teenagers.   They still did what they were told to do.   And I know there's drugs and alcohol.  But it wasn't prevalent.   I don't think any of my grandchildren have been involved at all or really rebelled -- which is unusual.   But I mean so many of them do.  And, it's just -- I don't know that I'd really want to have a teenager today.   There's so many things that are adverse distractions to them - -that we didn't have to encounter.   My kids were told what time to be home.   And they were home.   There was no question.   I think the most horrible thing was teaching them to drive -- which I would never do and worrying about them which you never get over. (laughter)  When mother would come back to visit -- I still recall that  (laughter)  But they obeyed.   And I'm sure they rebelled plenty but no, they didn't rebel unless over the fact that there was over a huge problem.   And today, some of them do.   And they have choices that our kids didn't have to make.

RB:  Such as -- what can you -- come to mind?

AN:  Well, I know -- just from -- of course, my two older grandchildren are past all that.   But, the one in New York has always gone to a private school.   And she's had boundaries, and she's never, ever questioned her boundaries. And, would never think of doing it.   But I know a lot of her friends -- from what my daughter tells me -- they really -- drugs, alcohol, morals -- the whole bit.  But there's not that much parental control.   And our kids -- as I said, they wouldn't dream of talking back.   They wouldn't dare.  Or not be home when they were supposed to be.   There was just never a question.  Well, it's not that easy today.

RB:  Right.   What about in terms of sexuality -- the differences in your parent's generation to your generation to your children's attitudes toward sexuality, and choices made around it -- that you've seen over time?

AN:  You mean male/female gender?   Or sexuality?

RB:  Both, I guess.   Either.

AN:  Well, of course, I mean typically we expect our son to achieve so much more than our daughters, quite frankly.  And, we knew he would have to make a living.   And, our daughters -- well, I always, always insisted that they work when they went to high school.  You know, say for a couple of Summers because I just felt -- whether they ever had to, or didn't have to -- they had to be equipped to do it.   So, they did work.   But, I think they all had a college education, took Soc, or something.   Because it wasn't that important, really, what they did take.   Because you expected them to get married, and have their own families.  But, that isn't true today.   And they do have to - -they do -- I think a child today better have some kind of a profession, or goal, or they're lost.   And I know like with Dan, my oldest grandchild -- financially, things have been very, very easy.   And a lot of his friends, just recently -- and it was quite a commentary, made all this paper money -- with Enron and stocks and the whole bit.   And suddenly things have just dropped out.   And none of them are paupers but, it has made a difference.   And, his outlook on money is certainly not what my children's outlook is.   And none of them have to worry about money.   But they're very conscious of spending money.  And, my grandchildren are not that way. (laughter)   So I think that as far as their morals are concerned -- I am going to have to generalize because I have been lucky.   My grandchildren -- as far as I know --- happen to be quite moral kids.   But I know that isn't true of a lot of kids today.   And if they are doing something I don't know about -- it is because they don't want to tell me, and I don't know about it. (laughter)  But, I really do feel that -- maybe it's because of the way they were raised.   I hope so.  But, our children were raised quite strictly.   My husband was quite strict.   I was a lot more lenient.  But - -I think it's made a difference.   And I don't think that too many kids are raised that way today.   There's too many choices for them which -- I didn't have - and my kids didn't have.

RB:  That's very interesting.   So, to hear that sometimes choices -- parents today think that they're a good idea -- can also present more problems.

AN:  I think so.   I think -- they just --- there aren't too many choices.  I think they're too many outside things that they can pick up along the way.   Ha, like my son said -- he wouldn't dare to have thought of leaving home.   Although he might have wanted -- where would he go?  (laughter)  Well, today, with so many two-parent - you know, two step-fathers, step-mothers -- they do have choices.   If they don't want to stay with one set of parents, they can just certainly go to another set of parents.   And, I would imagine that's rather -- the boundaries aren't rigid.   And I don't know if that was good or bad.  But, if a kid wants to leave home today -- he's got a lot of places he can go. (laughter)

RB:  Very interesting, isn't it?   To see it over time.

AN:  Yes.

RB:  Let's see -- as someone who has witnessed key events of the 20th Century, which landmark events played the most significant role in shaping your life experiences?   For example, the Depression, and World War II?

AN:  Well, I don't -- as I say I really don't know.   The War was not here.   We were not affected.  I was going to school.   I don't know -- and, it is too bad that it made a huge impression on me -- I did know a couple of boys that had been killed.  They were brothers of friends of mine.  But, other than that, it didn't.   I think the most awful impression was, as I've said -- when they started interning the Japanese population and I was very friendly with a lot of Japanese people at school.   And as I said, these people that lived -- you know, this family was a nice family lived across from us and they had to leave.   And I was very close to one Japanese girl in high school.   And, we did correspond for a while and it sort of petered out too.  But that was a terrible impression.   And, even then, I don't think that we were aware of the devastation that it caused in the Japanese community until after the fact -- and when we heard what the conditions were.  And we really didn't hear.   And, as far as the Holocaust itself was concerned?   Again, you heard, but it didn't touch us at that time.   And, yes, we had to give up things during the War.   And, we didn't have butter, and we didn't have silk stockings.  But that was a lark.   I mean, it wasn't a deprivation for anybody, really.   And I do remember people coming to our door - -bums coming to our door.   And that's about it.   People who didn't have -- you know, coming to our door.   And, my mother would always feed them outside.  And, nobody was every turned away hungry.   And you left your doors unlocked then.   We'd never think of locking the door.  And, of course, that's how much things have changed.   But, that's to be expected, I guess, with huge influxes of people to the area.   But Seattle was a lovely city -- and, is still. (laughter)  I wouldn't live any place else.   But it was a lovely place to grow up in.   Things were easy.   And people were very honest.   And I guess that I've been involved a little bit enough now in business -- that in the old days, a person's word was his word.   And you never questioned it. You didn't have to sign documents.   And you didn't have to sign pre-nuptials, and -- that's not true today, and it is too bad.  And, it is a sign of the times.   But, it's not a very good sign.   But, I guess it's -- you know, things have changed.   Not always for the better -- but you can't go back.

RB:  What about  Zionism and the creation of the State of Israel.   Did that have any role in your --

AN:  No.   Because Dr. Koch was - the Rabbi at Temple De Hirsch.   He was terribly, terribly anti-Zionist.   And, so it was really not ever discussed.   I have never -- it was never --- I'd never personally been involved in anything as far as Zionism is concerned.

RB:  So, Rabbi Koch had a huge influence on the community in terms of Israel?

AN:  Oh a great influence on the community.  Yes.

RB:  And, has that changed over time at Temple?

AN:  Oh yes.   Oh goodness, yes.

RB:  (inaudible)

AN:  Yes.   He was a very brilliant man.   But he came from -- I would assume a Germanic, Ashkenazic background.   A wealthy… his family was very much a part of the social community in Seattle.   So, yes, he was a very controlling factor at Temple.     And, it did color.   But then after -- of course, after he left -- and Rabbi Levine was very liberal.   And, a lovely, lovely, lovely man.   And he started, you know, the Radio Program with the Jews and the Christians.  It was successful for years and years.   And, he was completely different.  But, I had never been actively involved in Zionism.  And, I've been to Israel about three times now.   Oh, and I have become involved in Technion  which is the American Technion Society.   It's the Technion University in Haifa.   So I'm involved in the Seattle Section here.   And we established a scholarship there.   And I'm on the Board - -it's not very active in Seattle.  But I'm still involved in it.

RB:  How did you become active in that organization?

AN:  Somebody came from Los Angeles, I think -- and started to try to -- they got together.   And I don't remember who the person was.   They wanted to start a chapter in Seattle.  My husband and several other men were approached.  And, we went down to a conference in Los Angeles.   And, really very much believed in what they were doing.   And, we established -- as I say, we gave a money for a scholarship there.   And then, it sort of petered out.   And then, it was revived. (laughter)  Oh gosh, I guess it's been about five or six years now, in Seattle.   And, I've been sort of involved in an Advisory capacity -- and serve on the Board of that.

RB:  You know, you have served in so many different, important roles.   And yes, truly you have.   And I'm wondering -- for younger people who are just starting out, you know -- young mothers, or fathers -- people who are starting out with families and they want to get active in community service work -- what advice do you have to give them?

AN:  It's not quite the same.  Because so many mothers are working today.   And I know it is a hardship.   But I think the most important thing is - -if they possibly can, need to be involved in their Temple or Synagogue -- whatever they belong to.   And, also their schools.   There's such a dearth of leadership in the schools, or parental involvement today.  And that's an easy way of getting started.   But, it's really rewarding and it's interesting, and you keep involved, and you know what's going on.   And, if you can squeeze it into your busy life, by all means, do it somehow or other.   But I do think the most important things are to be involved in Jewish things, and the schools that they're kids go to public -- or, private school.

RB:  That's great.   Let's see.   I wanted to ask you about your husband a little bit.

AN:  Mmm hmm.

RB:  And, you mentioned that he passed away about five years ago, is it?

AN:  Yes.   Yes.

RB:  And, could you tell us a little bit about the circumstances of his death, and --

AN:  Well, I think about four or five years prior to that, he really had had several things the matter with him.   But none of them were end of life factors.   And then, he hadn't really been feeling well, for about three months.   And, nothing was diagnosed.   And then, just a month before he died, he was diagnosed with liver cancer.   And, of course, that was sort of -- that is fatal.  And we were led to believe that he'd have at least two years -- but he only had a month.  But, he had never -- as far as his life was concerned -- he grew up in Roanoke.   Went to Seward School.   His family also belonged to Temple.  And I had said he went.   And, he was -- (laughter)   well, growing up - the first few years of our marriage, he was very, very different.   And, his family had all died of heart trouble.  And, I think, in the back of his mind -- he was always sure that he was going to die at an early age of heart problems.   He had his first warning -- oh, I think he was about 50 years old.   And, it colored his life greatly, from then on.   He became very, very conservative.   And -- we did do a lot of traveling.   But, we sort of curtailed it for no reason.   And, he never -- he didn't -- I mean that was always under control.   That was always in the back of his mind.  But he was President of the Temple.   And, he was President of the Jewish Education Council -- which, at that time, was part of the Jewish Federation.   He was active in Scouts, when our son was a scout.  And that was the extent of his community activity.

RB:  So you were both very active?

AN:  Yes.  And then, he sold Nieder Manufacturing.    Oh heavens, it has to be about 25 years ago.   The Manufacturing.   But, we kept the name, because it was used for real estate and things.  And then, he got sort of -- he was getting bored -- or, I was getting bored.   I don't know which (laughter)   And, he really needed to do something.   So the bank told him there's a tee-shirt -- screen-printing business that was going into bankruptcy.   Would he please go help them?   So, he stayed in that, and it became very successful for about another 8 years.  And then, he sold that -- and, he just retired completely.   And we would travel.   And we took our kids -- never out of the United States.   But we took them traveling quite a bit.  We'd go to Honolulu, and around the United States.

RB:  So, you spent a lot of leisure time with travel?

AN:  Yes.   During vacations, yes.

RB:  That's wonderful.

AN:  Yes.

RB:  What has your experience of widowhood been?

AN:  My children have been very, very, very supportive.   So it's true that two of them aren't here.   But they come very frequently to visit.   Or I go there.   We see each other quite a lot.  At least 7, 8, 9 times a year. (laughter)  And we travel.   And we'd take them -- I mean even after they married -- we did take them on several family trips.   And then the family just got too big.   But they've been very supportive -- and it has made it easier.   But I think that because of the fact that I was President of the Library at that time -- and just the fact that I had things to do and could be kept busy, made it a lot  easier for me.   And, my friends have always been very supportive.   And, it's you know -- it took quite a long time.  But then, I guess the answer, like everybody says -- you just keep busy.   So, everybody's been very nice and helpful.   It's -- yes.

RB:  It sounds like you had a very supportive group of family and friends.

AN:  Yes, I have.   I've been very fortunate.   Yes.   I've had a very good life.

RB:  So, Ann, in closing this interview -- what closing thoughts, or comments would you like to share with us?

AN:  Well, I really do feel that I've been very fortunate to have been born in Seattle, and lived most of my life in Seattle.   I love the city, and I think there's no better place to live.  I've had very good long, long time friends that I still have.  And, many new interesting friends.   I have been part of the Jewish community which I dearly have cherished.   And I've had a most supportive family.   And I think I've just been very, very fortunate.   There were a few years that were financially difficult.   But, on the whole, I've been very fortunate, financially.   And, it's been a good life for me.

RB:  Thank you so much for your time.

AN:  Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]